Interview with Justin Sullivan in Saarbrücken - English Version

(New Model Army)

08.08.2008 von Andreas Weist

Before the New Model Army concert in Saarbrücken (Garage) on August 8^thin 2008 Musicheadquarter had the chance to interview frontman Justin Sullivan. The interview was conducted by Andreas Weist, all photographs by Jörg Lorscheider. A German version will follow soon.

Hello Justin. Musicheadquarter is an online magazine in Germany. My name is Andreas, this is Karsten, this is Jörg. Can we start then?

Justin Sullivan: Yeah.

Okay. Today is a special date. Triple 8. Does a day like this have a special meaning for you?

Justin Sullivan: Special date?

Yeah, August 8^th, 2008.

Justin Sullivan: So it is. I didn't even know. I didn't even know. No. I'm not very nervous with numbers. Not really. It's one of those things. It's like when your speedometer on your car is coming up to 99.000 km and you think, oh, I must watch it change to 100.000. And then suddenly it's 105.000 and you forgot to look. It's that moment.

A lot of people will marry today. That's a day to remember.

Justin Sullivan: Yeah, but that's the good thing to remember. It helps, it makes it easier to remember in the future to know when somebody says "When is our wedding anniversary? You must remember the date" and it's easier to remember. It's 8/8/8.

Tomorrow you are playing at the legendary club Batschkapp in Frankfurt. Do you remember when you played there the last time?

Justin Sullivan: Eh, a long time ago.

It was in March 89. Karsten knows such things.

Justin Sullivan: You know these things. Was it any good?

Karsten: I wasn't there. I had a look at the list on the internet and that's how I found out.

Justin Sullivan: All right.

The question is what has changed since then?

Justin Sullivan: Phew. [long pause] Well, let's begin at the very beginning. In 1989, a few months later the wall came down. This was a pretty big change. Ahem, we've all got older. The people in the band have changed. [pause]. Mrs Thatcher is nearly dead. Everything. I have this kind of ehem, I used to remember a lot but I've got to a certain point in my life now where I forget things. And I definitely feel this is OK. I don't really care about what happened in 1989.
I'm very interested in terms of history and documentation and the way civilization has changed and developed and the way the post-war world has changed. Germany has changed immeasurably since 1989. But I don't think about – do I think about New Model Army 20 years ago? No!
It's a life in music, you know. It goes each day as new. I'm not so interested in what we've done, I'm interested in what we're gonna do.

But we're going even further back in time: In about 2 years, the band will have existed for 30 years.Would you have expected to be still around making music in the same band when you started New Model Army in 1980?

Justin Sullivan: No no no. The band was put together by me and Stuart [Morrow], and also with Joolz [Denby]. Robert [Heaton] wasn't in it, to begin with. We just played two gigs in a pub in Bradford. And me and Stuart, we had already been together in a couple of bands and we started New Model Army as a kind of three-piece. "Right, this is it. We're gonna play two gigs in a pub."
No we never have. I think… looking back, I think Joolz had an idea. She's a woman, so she's more practical. She had the idea that this is, you know, there are practicalities to making music and a life in music. You know, I was just like a child. "I can play guitar, let us make a band. Yeah!" You know, I didn't have any expectation. I certainly never thought of it as a career. It was never to be a career, but what it was: I say I don't remember things, but I do remember one or two things, I remember kind of key moments. Things that change your life, you remember those.
In 1979, I went to a gig by The Ruts, the most famous for “Babylon's Burning”, the song. They would have become really big, but the singer died of heroin in 1980. Anyway, it was in a pub in Bradford on a very, very cold, cold snowy night. 200 people. And I went to the concert not really knowing what I wanted to do with my life. And in that concert there was everything that was wonderful, and terrible, and beautiful, and scary and exciting, and melancholy, and everything about being alive. And I came out of the concert going "Wooooooowwwww". And I remember what I felt like. I still remember what I felt like and I… every time I go out on stage the aim is to make people feel the way that I felt that night. It's like a template. It was the best gig I had ever seen, by miles. 200 people in a pub. Best gig. The most life-changing moment.

Are there any plans for the 30^th anniversary? In 2000, in London and Cologne, you played a total of four sets without repeating a single song.

Justin Sullivan: Yeah, I don't think this will happen again. I think it was a great idea and obviously, of course, the audience loved this. But the musicians hated it. I mean, you can imagine, I mean New Model Army songs - you know. If it's Bob Dylan and Neil Young, their bands are expected to know a lot of songs, but the song structures are kind of simple. And the parts are pretty simple. New Model Army: bass lines, drum parts, you know, they are very complicated. For somebody, for Nelson to remember 57 – we played 57 songs over the two nights – 57, remember, instantly recall 57 songs. It was asking an awful lot. And I don't... If I said "Guys, I've got this great idea…", I think that… you know. We will do something. I don't know what, but we will do something.
I mean it's strange. It was 20^th anniversary, then it was 25^th, and we did a kind of special show in Paris or something. And then it will be 30^th. They seem to come all the time.
But actually, 20 years is true, 25 is really - 30 is a little one. There's no serious small ones till 50, and I don't think we'll make that.

There is this phenomenon called "the following". People that go to as many of your concerts as possible, "following" you around Europe or even overseas. Some of these people have seen several hundreds of your concerts.Can you explain how this started and to what extent it has affected the way the band has developed.

Justin Sullivan: [Pause] Dunno how it started. We're just one of those bands that people follow. Grateful Dead were the same. Famously Grateful Dead. Ehem. It's a community. People started following the band in 1982. First two boys that would come to every concert we did, just in a local area of course. In 1983, we had finally a group of people in Wolverhampton that would come to every gig. And we went "Woooow". And ever since then we have had this kind of idea of a "following", but of course it's not the same people. The people of the following in the early 80s long since have families and jobs. So every two or three years this group of people changes, it regenerates. It's really interesting to watch. It's a whole new set of people every two or three years, but the idea remains the same.
I think it's great, I think that simply… They're not there to see us. They've seen us a million times. It's that…

To see each other…

Justin Sullivan: Yes, yes. The thing is, well, I spoke, I have spoken to Aideen. As an example. Aideen is, she is Irish actually but she has a very very high-power job in London. You know, well, she is really in charge of a lot of people. But there you go, coming to every concert, all the holidays, you know, from work, for New Model Army.
And we were going to Istanbul once and I said: "What is it, why do you come? You know, you've seen us a million times". She said "You're playing in Istanbul. If I go to Istanbul as a tourist, I can see the Mosque and I can see the Bosporus. But I don't have any people. And I'm a tourist. If I go to see my favourite band, I'm gonna meet Turkish people, and it's their favourite band, so immediately I've got something in common."
It's like, and then, you know, we are a number of people's favourite band and we're kind of, we're that sort of band. It's a very strong flavour. Some people don't get it, but some people that really get it, really get it. And then it becomes, because we are not in the papers and not on MTV and not sort of famous, it becomes a kind of community thing, it's an underground community thing. Very interesting people around the world into New Model Army. A lot of, I've met a lot of very, very interesting people that have been very kind of... I think it's because the music is about something. The music works on two levels. One is, the music is quite primal. You know, it's quite, it's got the kind of rock'n roll primal energy thing. But it's also, there's lots of ideas in it, both musical and lyrical ideas that people can – sort of – think about. And it's got stories which everybody kind of relates to. So it works on lots of different levels for people.

That's what we like about it, too.You are currently working on a live album which will be released in October. The working title is "Fuck Texas, Sing For Us". Can you explain this rather odd title?

Justin Sullivan: Everybody thinks that it is because, you know, that it's some kind of big political slogan or that it's provocative, deliberately. What happened: On the American tour in March we were in New Orleans. There's a little Club, you know, not millions of people, we are not really big in America, a few hundred people. And I said... we did the show and then we did one encore. And I said "We gotta go to Texas tomorrow, we've got 500 miles to drive and a show in Austin in Texas and I'm loosing my voice, I've got no voice. So, thank you very much, it's been a great night" and we went off. And they all started chanting "Fuck Texas, sing for us, fuck Texas, sing for us" and we were in the dressing room, like "What are they shouting?" and we just thought it was so funny and somebody – we don't have a recording of that night – but somebody caught it on a camcorder, so we do have just a bad recording of this so we're gonna start the album with this because it's so funny, to be honest, it's so funny. And we feel bad for the good people of Texas, because the next night in Austin they were a great audience and we actually really liked playing Austin and Texas is great. But it was too good an opportunity to miss.

The live album was recorded in the USA.

Justin Sullivan: No, no.

Karsten: That was my mistake. I thought because of the title…

Justin Sullivan: The title, yeah yeah. No, this chant comes from the USA. No, the album was recorded from Christmas shows in London, Amsterdam and Cologne and one show that we did in May in England, Holmfirth, so it is just four shows. We didn't record anything from the “High” tour last year and in America we didn't record anything, not properly, you know, like 24-track-recordings, we only have these Christmas shows.

But I've noticed that you've been touring in the USA very frequently in the last couple of years. Why is that?Are there differences between the audiences in North America compared to the ones in Europe?

Justin Sullivan: They're smaller in North America. [laughs] For many years we didn't go. We used to… we had delusions of grandeur I think. That we would take our big crew from London, and [would] try to do in America what we were doing in Europe with lots of people and a tour bus, and of course we'd lose lots of money. And then - we were always having problems with American authorities and with American business especially. We had terrible problems with record companies in America. So the last time we went – in 93 – we had this awful tour and we said "We're never going again". And then all way through the 90s we noticed that Americans would get on a plane and come to Europe to see us. And we started to feel that we owed them… You know, they were so loyal. We're loved by a small number of people in America. A few thousand people that really really… We are their band, in the same way we are to people here. Like I said, it's a small number and they are spread out across this huge country, but we felt we owed it to them, so we put a kind of toe in the water by doing – me and Dean went, just the two of us. And we were kind of welcomed back like long-lost heroes. [We had] a few hundred people. And so we keep going and we do it the hard way, we get in a van, we take a little crew, we play little clubs, we play to, you know, we play in New York to about 4, 5 hundred people. It's not big, but it's alright. But they are very enthusiastic; Americans are very enthusiastic people generally.
And I like going to America. I think America is very interesting. I couldn't live there, I don't wanna live there. But I find it interesting to visit, and when we first went back it was just at the beginning of the Iraq War and there were all these fucking flags everywhere. And to watch it change in these 6 years since we've been going, completely. All the flags – bit by bit – have come down and they have all realized this fucker - and to watch that change is quite interesting.
I'm still not sure. I still think McCain will get it, but I don't know.
You know, everyone has to go to America. You know, once in your life, you have to go and visit it. It's like if you are a Muslim, you have to visit Mecca. And if you grow up in the west, you watch Hollywood films, you watch TV, you listen to all this music that comes from America, you know, you grow up with Jimmy Hendrix. And you have to go to America once, just to look. That's enough.

Do you have expectations of the upcoming election in the USA?

Justin Sullivan: Well, we just talked about that. I think, I think that when people are scared they tend to vote right-wing, when people are hopeful they tend to vote left-wing. I think by November people in America will be very scared by the upcoming recession, but we'll see.

At the end of August you will be playing some acoustic shows together with Dean White, among others in a prison in England and at a festival in Beirut. How did this come to happen and what do you expect from these shows?

Justin Sullivan: Interesting week. The first one's tonight actually, because there is no support band. So we're doing, we'll have a go. We haven't played together for two years, but we can remember how to do it. I think.
Prisons, Joolz goes to prisons quite a lot actually. Joolz does kind of literature things in prisons. And I said, this prison she went to, I said "You know, I'll do a gig here." And they went "OK" and it's very difficult to organize. Cause it's millions of paperwork and it's very inefficient.
What do I expect? I don't know really. I do know other people that have played in prisons. I know Chumbawamba did a gig and I was talking to Chumbas the other day and they were talking about it. And other people have played in prison; we're not the first people to do it.
But I don't know about any expectations. I mean all our songs are incredibly violent and depressing, you know, so it'll be interesting. But this particular prison, it's a category C; it's not, it's mostly drugs offences and people that might have done murder but they've already done ten years. You know these sorts of prisons. It's not category A. Joolz once did a category A prison. And she said it was very, very different. It's like you're in a room with people, you honestly hope that they will never be let out. When I went to this category C prison, all these people, all the prisoners I'm talking to, they will be fine in the street. I don't mind if they're hanging around. And locking people up for drugs offences is ridiculous anyway. Stupid.
And Beirut. Well, I have to say, we got a call from someone in Beirut that loves New Model Army and he wanted New Model Army and he's doing a kind of festival and some other people are playing. I think, Mercury Rev are playing. But we already promised, Marshall has three gigs with another band. We already promised him the weekend for it. So New Model Army couldn't do it. So we said, me and Dean and he went "OK".
But I do [only] believe it when I'm on the plane. Sometimes you get these gigs in some really interesting part of the world. And they say "Everything is great. Blahblahblah", but the money never arrives and the plane tickets never arrive. Without the plane tickets and the money you don't go. That's that. But I'm interested; I'm certainly interested in going to Beirut. I've been to Cairo a lot of times. My sister lives in Cairo. And actually I was in Turkey three weeks ago. A month ago we played in Istanbul, a gig, the band played in Istanbul, which we don't often [do]. But then I decided to stay in Turkey for another ten days and just go to the east of Turkey. Have an adventure, go somewhere where no one speaks English [laughs]. Go up the mountains, and I had a great time. I really like travelling. But I don't know what to expect.

I like your solo album "Navigating by the Stars". It's a quiet, melancholic one and very atmospheric with songs that are different from the Army stuff. Do you have plans to do another solo album

Justin Sullivan: Yeah. But not yet. I think that at the moment New Model Army is really – this band is the best New Model Army since 1985. I think, my personal feeling. It's the band where we trust each other the most. Musically. And it's a very – we're having a bit of a roll. You know, over the years you have good times, bad times. I'd say this band is really on a roll. And so it's good to keep on the roll. Doing another album next.

I saw Red Sky Coven three times, in Trier at the “Tufa”, and it was a great atmosphere.

Justin Sullivan: Yeah, we're doing Red Sky Coven again. In January I think.

Maybe in Germany?

Justin Sullivan: Yeah. Plans, no gigs yet, But that's just a week and that's easy. But the thing about doing a solo album. I say I'll do a solo album. Three months. But they all know that it will be two years, because I'm very slow. I'm just slow. If I go away for two years doing something like that, you know, I won't be there.

Karsten: Is it going to be about the sea again? Or are you going to choose a different element this time?

Justin Sullivan: Well I did think – because I went on holiday in California with Joolz, to California actually in January. So it was kind of Death Valley. Panamint Valley is my favourite place at the moment. So, deserts maybe. I like places that are big. Big, open. Sea, desert. Somewhere where you can see long – I like to be able to see long distances.

Karsten: You're not going to find that in Germany…

Justin Sullivan: Well no, but, the tops of some of the mountains. Yesterday we were in Sion in Switzerland. A very beautiful place. [But] if I'm on the top of a mountain that's great. But if I'm at the bottom… I get crazy – I like big, open spaces. I like that. But I don't – I didn't quite like mountains. I like wherever I feel small. Because that's the natural state; that's how things are. We are like a grain of sand in – the scale of the world, and the scale of time and everything, our own individual lives. You know, we're that small. And that's my sense of God. I'm basically religious and my sense of God has got to do with nature. The bigness of nature

I like the ocean, too and I think in a song like “Ocean Rising” – it is in there in the song.

Justin Sullivan: I'm very proud of that album and I look forward to doing another one. I've actually just finished an album with Joolz. Which isn't like that but it is an opportunity to do something away from New Model Army in the same way. I just recorded eleven poems. And then the poem is finished, it's done, it's fixed. And I just build music around the poem, which I love doing actually. But I think it's really a good album, it's called “Spirit Stories”.

Joolz' voice?

Justin Sullivan: Yeah, Joolz' voice. Just stories about music and some tracks with quite a lot of music. Like drums, Michael played drums on it. Some songs with just strange kind of atmospheric music. Some is quite full-on. And it was a great pleasure to make, it's very kind of creative. So that will come out at the end of the summer.

Finally a personal question. Yesterday you played in Switzerland and co-headlined a festival with Fish, the former front man of Marillion. I personally happen to become a huge fan of Fish over the last few years. So I'm just curious whether you got to meet him?

Justin Sullivan: Yes. But there were only two bands on. It was a very Swiss sort of occasion. There was a big stage with a very good PA and a weekend festival. But on the Thursday, there was just us and Fish. And there was maybe – the weather was terrible – there was maybe a thousand or two thousand people there, it was not many people. After about ten minutes into his set it rained and rained and rained and rained. And then for about twenty minutes. A lot of people went for shelter and then came back and he went on playing. And then in between the two sets it rained really heavy, so we thought everybody's gone home. And then we started playing and everybody came out again. And it stopped raining a bit and they watched us. It was a good night.
He's a straightforward – he's just what he is. I've met him – I'm trying to think how many times I've met him; probably not for a very long time anyway – maybe 20 years ago cause we were both on EMI in the early 80s. But he's not so different from us. It's like a cottage industry. But I understand – but he, he's more – he's cottage industry, but he does his own business, which I personally think is a terrible mistake. I don't touch business, which makes me very lucky.

I think, in his career, Fish has made some mistakes in the business, the music business.

Justin Sullivan: Hm, we made lots, too. But the thing is, he is now – he runs a small operation, a bit like New Model Army – it's a small operation. But I think he likes to be in control, or he feels he should be in control. So he is involved in the business sort-of-thing, whereas I am not involved in the business sort-of-thing. But I am very lucky, we have Tommy [Tee, their manager], who does that. I don't wanna do – you know, I used to be interested in the music business. Every decision I ever made was wrong. I'm useless at it. And in the end, I don't really care. If there's enough - if I open my fridge at home, and there's food in it and, you know, all the bills are paid, I don't really care, I don't care about money. I just really like music. And I love travelling. So the two things together - I love touring because I love travelling and I love making music. I'm very lucky. And I don't have to do business, so I'm very lucky.

Fine. Thank you very much for your time.

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